Thoughts on the current one-division state tournament model

[QH_Coach]

http://www.thecaliforniawrestler.com...531#post449531

I think we started talking about this a couple weeks ago...2 divisions may work.

Now, imagine this....Starting the tournament on Thursday in RaboBank. 10 mats...5 mats for Div 1, 5 mats for Div 2, and all 10 mats for the Girls. We could get through first round of Championship in a little over 4 hours...

Thursday
10am - Weigh Ins
12 pm - 5pm Championship Round 1

Div 1 - 24 8 matches per weight on 5 mats
Div 2 - 24 8 matches per weight on 5 mats
Girls - 24 8 matches per weight on 10 mats

5pm - 9:30 Championship Round 2

Div 1 - 24 8 matches per weight on 5 mats
Div 2 - 24 8 matches per weight on 5 mats

Boys Released @ approx 7:30 pm

Girls - 24 8 matches per weight on 10 mats
No one is eliminated on Day 1 - CIF is happy, wrestlers are happy, coaches are happy...I know, Socialism right (look at the $ from the gate for 2 days....hmmmm...maybe capitalism after all!).

Friday
8 am Weigh Ins
10 am - 12 pm Consolation Round 1

Div 1 - 24 8 matches per weight on 5 mats
Div 2 - 24 8 matches per weight on 5 mats
Girls - 24 8 matches per weight on 10 mats
(now 8 per weight eliminated)

12 pm - 5 pm Championship Quarterfinals, Consolation Round 2

Div 1 - 16 8 matches per weight on 5 mats
Div 2 - 16 8 matches per weight on 5 mats
Girls - 16 8 matches per weight on 10 mats
(4 per weight eliminated)

5 pm - 8:30 pm Consolation Round 3

Div 1 - 12 4 matches per weight on 5 mats
Div 2 - 12 4 matches per weight on 5 mats

boys released approx 7pm

Girls - 12 4 matches per weight on 10 mats
Only placers and medalist return for Saturday - medals to 6th, place to 8th.

Saturday
NO WEIGH IN - though this may violate NFHS rules, huh?

10 am - 12:30 pm Championship Semi-Finals
42 matches on 6 mats
Consolation Round 4 on 4 mats
42 matches on 4 mats

12:30-2:30 Consolation Semi-Finals
84 matches on 6 mats
7/8 Place Matches
42 matches on 3 mats

2:30 pm - 4:30 pm 3rd/5th Place matches
84 matches on 6 mats

6:30 pm - Parade of Champions

7 pm - Finals begin on 3 mats
This is really the only issue I have with this proposal--I feel like it devalues the finals...

Or, we stay with a single division and incorporate the girls tournament into the mix. Boys on 6 mats, girls on 4.

Boys 40
Girls 24

Large Schools = 1501 +
Small Schools = < 1500
CIF could allow small schools to petition up, but not large schools to petition down.

[awood1]

Disappointing to see the crowds on Friday and Saturday morning. Is it the economy or are the prices too high at state?
The finals looked well-attended though. Great finals matches, I thought.

Indiana native (single champion state) attending my first CA state championship this weekend, a few observations from this weekend;

1.) Class and/or Divisions is an odd duck in CA!? You all say that you don't have class or divisions, but you do!? I am not even sure that each section does it the same, but here in the SJS we have team duals (which are by Division), then League (which has a Division tied to it), then what they call a Divisional's (which is obviously Divisions!?) that qualify you for Masters where FINALLY you have a non-divisional tnmt!? So if you are the 6th best kid in CA and happen to wrestle in the SJS D1S Division, you don't even make it to Masters!? But really that is a separate issue and a whole different topic.

2.) THE most expensive part of the weekend was the TIX to the event. I have been in/around wrestling for 40+ years and have never been to an event that the ticket was more expensive than the food, gas, or hotel UNTIL this weekend. I know the CIF seems to jack up the $ each step of the way in every sport, but this seemed pretty excessive.

3.) Friday is CRAZY long. Going back to my previous experiences, in IN only 16 make it to state (obviously a much smaller pool to start). But they wrestle 1 match Friday night, win that and come back Saturday...lose and go home. It's always an edge of your seat event and the finality is crazy. But to have a 40 man bracket with full wrestle backs (larger than just about any other tnmt.) really test your metal to endure the storm. Honestly, I believe the officiating went from top notch to start the day....to good...to questionable as the day went on. Knowing most kids are up at 5am to check weight and still wrestling at 9pm is just crazy to think that all participants are anything but punch drunk by the end of the day. The end result is an event that doesn't have the excitement. Nobody watches the first 23 miles of a marathon or the first 54 holes of the Masters or all 500 laps of the Indy 500. Now when it gets to the finish line (aka. Saturday night) people turn out to watch. Maybe you should add another increment on the way to state? Maybe a couple of 32 man events the weekend before (NorCal and SoCal?) and the top 8 from each go to state? I mean everyone LOVES the underdog story, but can anyone point to a kid that placed in the top 8 that wasn't ranked in the top 16 before hand? Another tip of the hat to the state rankings, but with very few exceptions the necessity of 1,000+ matches seems untrue. The excellent regular season tnmts. (Doc B, Temecula, Tim Brown, etc.) answer a lot of the questions before the state tournament series even starts.

Thats my .02 cents....

[Gator]

How many time has it been said if you RE-DRAW the tournament you would have some different placers in all the weight classes .Maybe the same placers in the 1-3 guys but 4-8 could be different, I think some of those guys are the one's we are missing out by NOT having a 2 or 3 div. State.
1-A top 8
1-AA top 6
1-AAA top 3
This would could help keep wrestling going instead of disappearing because of budgets or ?????

[Gooch]

Ridiculous Post...I think they have "POKEMON" groups in every school, and they have divisions...just something u might want to consider.....Or maybe even Black Ops, Or Madden 12' tournaments for your kids ....... Invest more time, Sweat, Hard Work, Tears, and did I say Hard Work!!!!!! Even the smallest of schools make champions, sometimes the greatest of all CHAMPIONS!!!! ALEX CISNEROS is one that comes to mind....A small, Wait......Tiny agricultural town, rich in culture, Small in numbers, Yet Huge on SUCCESS!!!!!! What a pity to have limited such a CHAMP to a lower Division. Wrestlers are the ultimate competitors, and I am sure not one TRUE WRESTLER would be happy to say they were the Div.2, or Div.3 champ In the CALIFORNIA STATE WRESTLING CHAMPIONSHIPS.

[gwm]

I'm pretty new to all this but have been around wrestling for a long time. I also follow Football at the High school level. I had the pleasure of watching one of our Marmonte league teams win the CIF Championship, Westlake HS. I also watched them play in the State Game, wasn't much of a game, sorry Jim, but you were outmatched. Somebody ??? decides who plays who & you have a "FINAL" state game. Why bring this up???????

Don't we have divisions already? L.A. City, S.F. City, SFS MASTERS, SD MASTERS, CS Masters, etc., just in our Southern Section we have 6 CIF tourney's, which make up SS MASTERS. That tourney alone is tough to win. The fans pack the gyms for those tourney's, at least in the SS. I'm sure that most of the other 'STATE QUALIFING' tourney's or 'MASTERS' are packed too.
.
Being a coach/fan of the sport I would think that having 'SOMEBODY' decide who is in Div. I, Div. II, could bring "OUR" state champ to well....????....Lets take C.C.'s Morgan Mcintosh for example. ...

Wouldn't CC be a lower division school based on attendance. Morgan would have never gotten a chance to do what he did. Now of course I chose a SS school because that's what I know but, Cisneros from Selma, another wrestler mentioned in this thread, or even Valencia now a freshman, change the format & he becomes a Div.?? Champ for the next 3 years.

Lets change the "STATE DUAL" format & leave "OUR" state tourney alone!!!!

Just Murf
NPHS Wrestling

P.S. Congrats to the Clovis team on winning it AGAIN!!!!

[Deadtired]

The tournament isn't Central enough. Bakersfield is a better arena but worse location. Do you think the arena would be empty in Fresno?

[Next Level]

I think it's a great post.

Do you realize what these guys are suggesting?

They are not trying to grow the sport and make the State Tournament better; what they are trying to do is eliminate the State Tournament and make Masters the State Championships.

“DO NOT LET THEM DO IT!”

Eliminating the State Tournament will not grow the sport as they suggest. Adam, do not allow yourself to be pulled into their argument, you are trying to promote a state championship for duals and they are using your words to try and eliminate the Individual State Championship.

Last weekend was a wonderful event (so what if the seats were not filled) do we really want to eliminate it and end the season at Masters?

Bo Longo

[Cort Mitchell]

Ridiculous Post...I think they have "POKEMON" groups in every school, and they have divisions...just something u might want to consider.....Or maybe even Black Ops, Or Madden 12' tournaments for your kids .......

No need to be insulting. NSC has coached a state champion, he knows what hard work is all about, in his current job I'm not sure divisions would benefit him at all--he is simply opening a discussion. If you disagree, find a constructive way to prove your point rather than belittling his.

[ex-coach]

Indiana native (single champion state) attending my first CA state championship this weekend, a few observations from this weekend;

1.) Class and/or Divisions is an odd duck in CA!? You all say that you don't have class or divisions, but you do!? I am not even sure that each section does it the same, but here in the SJS we have team duals (which are by Division), then League (which has a Division tied to it), then what they call a Divisional's (which is obviously Divisions!?) that qualify you for Masters where FINALLY you have a non-divisional tnmt!? So if you are the 6th best kid in CA and happen to wrestle in the SJS D1S Division, you don't even make it to Masters!? But really that is a separate issue and a whole different topic. News flash, we are discussing the state tournament, not the independent sections which govern in atonomy. Oh, and the number of high schools compared to Indiana, not close!

2.) THE most expensive part of the weekend was the TIX to the event. I have been in/around wrestling for 40+ years and have never been to an event that the ticket was more expensive than the food, gas, or hotel UNTIL this weekend. I know the CIF seems to jack up the $ each step of the way in every sport, but this seemed pretty excessive. Lets not get carried away to make a point. The prices are a little high, some options can be explored, but my hotel room cost per night was $109 at the Marriott per nigh, my ticket for the entire event (three sessions) was lower than that.

3.) Friday is CRAZY long. Going back to my previous experiences, in IN only 16 make it to state (obviously a much smaller pool to start). But they wrestle 1 match Friday night, win that and come back Saturday...lose and go home. It's always an edge of your seat event and the finality is crazy. But to have a 40 man bracket with full wrestle backs (larger than just about any other tnmt.) really test your metal to endure the storm. Honestly, I believe the officiating went from top notch to start the day....to good...to questionable as the day went on. Knowing most kids are up at 5am to check weight and still wrestling at 9pm is just crazy to think that all participants are anything but punch drunk by the end of the day. The end result is an event that doesn't have the excitement. Nobody watches the first 23 miles of a marathon or the first 54 holes of the Masters or all 500 laps of the Indy 500. Now when it gets to the finish line (aka. Saturday night) people turn out to watch. Maybe you should add another increment on the way to state? Maybe a couple of 32 man events the weekend before (NorCal and SoCal?) and the top 8 from each go to state? I mean everyone LOVES the underdog story, but can anyone point to a kid that placed in the top 8 that wasn't ranked in the top 16 before hand? Another tip of the hat to the state rankings, but with very few exceptions the necessity of 1,000+ matches seems untrue. The excellent regular season tnmts. (Doc B, Temecula, Tim Brown, etc.) answer a lot of the questions before the state tournament series even starts.
If you did not watch the early matches, you missed some good wrestling. There are already a couple 32 man brackets the week before at the Section qualifiers. California tried a regional concept once with an 8 person bracket, it did not work out to well.

Thats my .02 cents....

Every once in a while we get an out of state person who comments we have it all wrong, despite how this debate on the future of the the state tournament goes, California has a pretty good high school athletic system.

[mhicks]

Ridiculous Post...I think they have "POKEMON" groups in every school, and they have divisions...just something u might want to consider.....Or maybe even Black Ops, Or Madden 12' tournaments for your kids ....... Invest more time, Sweat, Hard Work, Tears, and did I say Hard Work!!!!!! Even the smallest of schools make champions, sometimes the greatest of all CHAMPIONS!!!! ALEX CISNEROS is one that comes to mind....A small, Wait......Tiny agricultural town, rich in culture, Small in numbers, Yet Huge on SUCCESS!!!!!! What a pity to have limited such a CHAMP to a lower Division. Wrestlers are the ultimate competitors, and I am sure not one TRUE WRESTLER would be happy to say they were the Div.2, or Div.3 champ In the CALIFORNIA STATE WRESTLING CHAMPIONSHIPS.

A lot of schools considered "small" are not that small. Selma has 1700+. They are in the "small" school division in the Central Section. I know a few schools in the large division (Liberty, Centennial etc. have smaller enrollments...in the 1600s).