Push out rule in folkstyle?

[tirapell]

I'll be the first to admit, I love folkstyle and have loathed about every rule change FILA has made to freestyle & greco-roman wrestling since 1980ish, including the push-out for 1 point rule. This is coming from wrestling all 3 styles but from a perspective of not scrapping folkstyle, but improving it.

After many years with the push-out rule, I'm actually thinking that it could make sense in folk. The more I watch elite international wrestling, the more I see how important controlling the mat is, which I think is a big part of the sport that we've lost. I'm not sure the exact rules for implementation, but I do like the fact that the wrestlers are required to stay on the mat and battle, fighting to maintain control over the middle. Controlling the mat is a MUCH bigger part of international wrestling whereas in folkstyle, we rely on the referee to "call stalling" to make controlling the mat important. Anything that removes subjectivity and puts the onus on the wrestlers in an objective fashion with objective measure is a good thing IMO. Right now, too much relies on the referee and his interpretation, which varies from ref to ref, region to region, and level to level.

Does the push-out result sometimes in the defensive guy scoring? Yes, it does. It's not perfect. Maybe something to look at. But it does force you to attempt action in the center or if your opponent won't wrestle the center, you try to push them out.

The other benefit in folkstyle is that a takedown is worth 2 points, not 1. In freestyle/greco, the pushout is worth the same as the takedown and one is so much easier to get than the other. But in folkstyle, the pushout would still only be worth 1/2 of a takedown, making the takedown, though more difficult to achieve, still the ultimate goal. You'd not only be rewarded with double the points, but the opportunity to wrestle on top, get a turn, and in college, accumulate riding time. Still a better deal than a push-out point.

Ever since I've been in wrestling, "stalling" has been the most hotly debated and misunderstood/misinterpreted rule in the sport. What if we actually took a page out of the international styles and included the push-out for 1 point in the neutral position to minimize the effect of "stalling", either called or not called?

Benefits:
1. Controlling the mat is rewarded. Stalling is less important of a call/non-call.
2. Better transition to international styles. Isn't that why some want to eliminate folkstyle?
3. Easier scoring opportunities = more scoring. People like scoring. Anything to get back and forth scoring/lead changes is good.

Drawbacks:
1. Sometimes the attacker will step out first and thus the wrong guy is rewarded.
2. No real implementation for top/bottom.

Just wondering if anyone else has seen the push-out grow on them from a folkstyle perspective?

[occoach]

And the clock keeps running would speed up tournaments...could be good

[rydtime]

I think it is a good idea for hs age and up for freestyle and maybe in folk-style has some merits also. I do not like the rule for kids, especially when they are on half of a mat, the rule is frustrating for kids.

[tirapell]

I think it is a good idea for hs age and up for freestyle and maybe in folk-style has some merits also. I do not like the rule for kids, especially when they are on half of a mat, the rule is frustrating for kids.

Agreed. You can always modify rules for an age-division or event, but the base rules should be set for the high school and college age. I think anytime you're wrestling on less than a full mat, the rule probably doesn't apply.

[AMorris]

This would be great for the sport from a fan perspective. The constant starting and stopping of action in collegiate wrestling is boring. The step out rule leads to more movement and action, and is something easily understood by new fans.

[cimaron99]

It would bring a new level of excitement to Folkstyle. Image the first period of overtime!

[Vikingblue]

I like the idea of 1 point for a push out. I have seen many good wrestlers lose matches due to poor officiating on stalling calls, and this would eliminate this from the standing portion of the match. during the top/bottom part of the match, no point for going out when some one is in control. seems like it would be easy to adjust this rule.

[Coach Withrow]

Agreed. You can always modify rules for an age-division or event, but the base rules should be set for the high school and college age. I think anytime you're wrestling on less than a full mat, the rule probably doesn't apply.

I dont think its in the best interest of our sport to have dramatic changes in scoring from one level to the next. Look at the issues we've discussed with why some teams do offseason freestyle/greco and others dont, one of the biggest problems is keeping up with the constant changes in scoring. If we were to go to the push out rule in folkstyle we would need to enforce it at all levels, in fact I'd argue it would be better if we installed it at the younger ages before high school so that the up and comers have grown up with it. Kids at the high school level would have the harder time adjusting after years of wrestling without it and have already developed their "style" of wrestling. I like the idea of running time though. It would definitley increase the tempo and urgency of matches plus cut down a bit how long a tournament is.

[west_coast_wrestler]

Although I see your point, dont you think part of our style of wrestling is scoring on the edge of the mat? By scoring on the edge i dont mean a push out. I mean actually winning a battle of control and completing a takedown or scramble. I think a pushout in our style of wrestling would alter how we wrestle enough to take away from some of the exciting aspects. I think we would see less attempts to complete takedowns in close matches if guys actually got in on a leg. For example if a match was tied with short time and the defensive wrestler has really good takedown defense, the offensive wrestler could just walk him out of bounds if he got in on a single leg. Seems like a cheap way to win a close match and it takes away the excitement of two guys fighting hard to get a takedown if they were on the edge of the mat. The major point that would be taken away would be at the college level. As we all know, two guys are still in bounds as long as someones big toe is still in. This is an awesome factor that i wish they would implement at the high school level. But if we had push outs in folkstyle, this aspect of wrestling on the edge would diminish.

However, I do agree that it takes away the stalling aspect and forces guys to control the center of the mat. In my opinion, i just see push outs as an X factor that would change so much of the way we wrestle here in America. I dont know if anyone agrees with me, but its just a little something I see wrong with push outs.

[Coach Withrow]

Although I see your point, dont you think part of our style of wrestling is scoring on the edge of the mat? By scoring on the edge i dont mean a push out. I mean actually winning a battle of control and completing a takedown or scramble. I think a pushout in our style of wrestling would alter how we wrestle enough to take away from some of the exciting aspects. I think we would see less attempts to complete takedowns in close matches if guys actually got in on a leg. For example if a match was tied with short time and the defensive wrestler has really good takedown defense, the offensive wrestler could just walk him out of bounds if he got in on a single leg. Seems like a cheap way to win a close match and it takes away the excitement of two guys fighting hard to get a takedown if they were on the edge of the mat. The major point that would be taken away would be at the college level. As we all know, two guys are still in bounds as long as someones big toe is still in. This is an awesome factor that i wish they would implement at the high school level. But if we had push outs in folkstyle, this aspect of wrestling on the edge would diminish.

However, I do agree that it takes away the stalling aspect and forces guys to control the center of the mat. In my opinion, i just see push outs as an X factor that would change so much of the way we wrestle here in America. I dont know if anyone agrees with me, but its just a little something I see wrong with push outs.

Agreed. I think Adams main point is not necessarily to alter scoring but more to force action in a match. The big problem is that "stalling" is so subjective from ref to ref. Perhaps if we could implement stalling calls with a push out in some way it would be more common ground on the issue. If a wrestler is playing the edge and other wrestlers pushes them out then they get hit with a stall call perhaps? I know its still not perfect and is giving the ref another judgement call but at least there'd be a bit more consistency and force some action.